Follow That Food! Food Safety Through Traceability with Andy Kennedy

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[00:00:38] When I joined the FDA, I literally got thrown into the fire right away

[00:00:42] and being new to the agency, but with a lot of traceability experience,

[00:00:47] I figured, all right, this is my moment.

[00:00:49] This will be a piece of cake. My eyes were opened.

[00:00:52] And when you're doing traceability from the agency perspective, it's real.

[00:00:57] People are really getting sick.

[00:00:59] And the documentation that you get from industry is all over the map

[00:01:04] because at the time, there was no sortable spreadsheet requirement.

[00:01:08] There's no CTEs and KDEs.

[00:01:10] It's hey send us your records.

[00:01:12] You don't get nice neat G10 lot SSCC ship to ship from you don't get any of that.

[00:01:18] And when you're under the gun and you're trying to solve a food safety problem,

[00:01:22] people are really getting sick.

[00:01:24] It's a lot of pressure and every day that you're struggling with paperwork

[00:01:28] trying to get into spreadsheets, trying to figure out the source,

[00:01:31] you know people are getting sick.

[00:01:32] So it's a lot different pressure.

[00:01:35] Hello and welcome to the next level supply chain with GS1 US

[00:01:39] a podcast in which we explore the mind bending world of global supply chains

[00:01:44] covering topics such as automation, innovation, unique identity and more.

[00:01:49] I'm your co-host Reed and I'm Liz and welcome to the show.

[00:01:54] We deny just had the pleasure of speaking with Andy Kennedy from new air partners.

[00:02:00] He has been around the food industry for many many years

[00:02:04] and he shared with us what food safety means

[00:02:07] and why it's important for both retailers and consumers.

[00:02:10] There's a food safety regulation specifically.

[00:02:13] It's called FSMA 204.

[00:02:15] So food safety modernization Act 204 where the supply chain has to take some actions

[00:02:21] that they hadn't necessarily done in the past.

[00:02:24] He talks about the importance of standards and traceability

[00:02:27] when it comes to food safety and how utilizing GS1 standards

[00:02:31] can help comply with this evolving regulatory demands

[00:02:35] and he illustrated how technology really has progressed over the two decades.

[00:02:39] He took us a little bit behind the scenes of what happens

[00:02:41] when foods get recalled, which is really interesting

[00:02:45] and that the pandemic while we don't really like to talk about it all the time anymore

[00:02:49] it's highlighted the need for resilience real-time visibility

[00:02:53] and interoperability in supply chains.

[00:02:56] Enjoy.

[00:02:57] Andy welcome to the show.

[00:02:59] We are so excited to have you today.

[00:03:01] Thanks Liz.

[00:03:02] Just a thank you to Liz Andy.

[00:03:04] I don't get any love.

[00:03:05] I mean come on Reed.

[00:03:06] Absolutely not.

[00:03:09] That's the way it should be.

[00:03:11] That's the way it should be.

[00:03:13] So you are very well versed in all things food safety

[00:03:18] and that can going to be the theme of our conversation today before we get started.

[00:03:22] Will you just give us a little background of yourself

[00:03:25] what you've done in the food industry and not food industry if that applies

[00:03:29] and then what you're doing now to move all of this food safety stuff forward?

[00:03:34] That's pretty big question.

[00:03:35] So I've been doing this for a while as you can imagine.

[00:03:38] So I've been in the traceability space for about 17 years.

[00:03:41] So I started in 2006 creating really one of the first SAS

[00:03:46] traceability businesses food logic.

[00:03:49] You got to put yourself back in time 2006.

[00:03:51] That was before the iPhone.

[00:03:53] So doing traceability was kind of a pain back in the day.

[00:03:57] So it took a little while to get that rolling.

[00:03:59] So we've been through the traceability wars for a long time,

[00:04:02] but I was fortunate enough to get some great customers early on

[00:04:06] Whole Foods and Chipotle and really got to understand how traceability works in real life at scale,

[00:04:12] you know across some big supply chains

[00:04:14] and then concurrently while we were doing that I was asked by GS1 to help out with adapting

[00:04:20] EPCIS to the food world.

[00:04:23] Serialization in the food world didn't go over really well.

[00:04:26] So I can only imagine.

[00:04:28] Yeah, really identifying every case kind of didn't work for food.

[00:04:34] So I had the pleasure of working with Ken Traub on updating EPCIS

[00:04:39] to include the famous LG10 or G10 plus lot.

[00:04:44] So that was EPCIS 1.1 and 1.2.

[00:04:47] So working with Ken and Gina Morgan on really taking EPCIS and adapting it to the food world.

[00:04:54] So it was amazing tremendous experience working on that technology and adapting it to

[00:05:00] Bachelot traceability.

[00:05:02] So that was the beginning of my GS1 journey, my first real big working group experience

[00:05:07] and you know if I didn't have enough bureaucracy doing that I was asked to participate in

[00:05:12] the FDA pilot with IFT.

[00:05:14] So when FDA was test driving FSMA 204 just trying to understand what the industry was doing.

[00:05:21] So IFT ran a pilot project and FoodLogic was invited to be one of the 10 participants

[00:05:27] in that pilot and that's where I really learned about traceability from an FDA perspective

[00:05:32] like their use cases.

[00:05:34] So that was incredibly eye-opening and I built a relationship with IFT.

[00:05:39] So when he just bought left IFT to go to Walmart and pursue blockchain traceability

[00:05:45] working with Frank Giannis over at Walmart would use VP of Food Safety developing

[00:05:51] traceability for Walmart.

[00:05:53] I subbed in to the Global Food Traceability Center and had the opportunity to work

[00:05:58] with GFTC on seafood traceability, which was incredible.

[00:06:02] So working globally on seafood traceability standards and we went everywhere.

[00:06:08] We did events all around the world for a couple years developing those best practices

[00:06:13] and standards and at their core we adapted EPCIS for interoperability for seafood,

[00:06:20] which was amazing.

[00:06:21] So I got to take all that work that we had done back in the day with 1.1

[00:06:24] and 1.2 and really apply it to the seafood use case.

[00:06:28] So at the GFTC Frank was one of the advisors.

[00:06:32] We got to know each other, done some panels and so forth together.

[00:06:35] And then when he went to the FDA and joined FDA in 2018 not long afterwards,

[00:06:40] he signed the consent decree for FSMA 204 to really, you know,

[00:06:44] the rule of end on the books for almost 10 years and consumer groups were very

[00:06:48] interested in getting the rule out there into the world.

[00:06:51] I joined FDA in the fall of 2019.

[00:06:54] I don't know if you remember back then but there was a little thing called

[00:06:57] COVID that happened right after that.

[00:06:59] So I had all these visions of working in FDA and White Oak and getting

[00:07:03] suited and booted every day and have my awesome apartment up in Silver Spring.

[00:07:07] That lasted exactly four months.

[00:07:10] Then I ended up back at home in North Carolina sitting my sweatpants on

[00:07:15] working group calls with the rule writing team the next three years,

[00:07:19] which was great.

[00:07:20] The team that developed the rule was incredible had the opportunity to do

[00:07:24] comment responses after the proposed rule.

[00:07:26] So I got to read thousands of comment responses then read.

[00:07:31] I know this is going to surprise you, but there are several people out

[00:07:34] there that aren't fans of the federal government.

[00:07:37] So I'm shocked.

[00:07:38] I'm shocked.

[00:07:39] So you've dropped a couple of names here and I don't want to put any

[00:07:42] pressure on anybody, but Frank Giannis is our number one podcast right now.

[00:07:47] He was so important that we got stiff armed by our CEO Bob Carpenter

[00:07:52] and he's like Liz Reed, you're not on the podcast today.

[00:07:55] I am going to be interviewing Frank Giannis and in all seriousness,

[00:07:58] it was a great conversation.

[00:07:59] And Gina Morgan, you dropped her name as well in a lot of the EPCIS work.

[00:08:04] So she was on just a couple of months ago and hers actually started

[00:08:08] trending higher.

[00:08:09] So Andy no pressure for the three of us.

[00:08:13] Okay.

[00:08:13] No pressure for the three of us to keep building upon this.

[00:08:16] I know Liz you had another piece to that though, and I just

[00:08:20] got so excited about it.

[00:08:21] It's like there's so much.

[00:08:22] There's so much stuff and there's so much technology Andy that

[00:08:25] you've helped like to enable all of this traceability, but underlying

[00:08:31] that is food safety for consumers and retailers to get safe food

[00:08:36] and food service outlets.

[00:08:38] Right?

[00:08:38] What does that mean to you because all of this work you've done

[00:08:41] over all of these years it comes down to the importance of

[00:08:43] food safety.

[00:08:44] Yeah.

[00:08:44] So great question Liz.

[00:08:46] And when I joined the FDA so that was October of 2019 within

[00:08:51] like the first week we had a massive outbreak investigation related

[00:08:56] to romaine lettuce.

[00:08:58] So I literally got thrown into the fire right away and being

[00:09:02] new to the agency, but with a lot of traceability experience

[00:09:06] I figured all right.

[00:09:07] This is my moment.

[00:09:08] This will be a piece of cake.

[00:09:10] My eyes were opened and when you're doing traceability from

[00:09:14] the agency perspective, it's real people are really getting sick

[00:09:18] and the documentation that you get from industry is all over the

[00:09:22] map because at the time there was no sortable spreadsheet requirement.

[00:09:27] There's no CTEs and KDE's you're talking the BT act of 2002.

[00:09:32] It's hey send us your records so you get POs and invoices

[00:09:36] bills elating.

[00:09:37] You don't get nice neat cheat in lot SSCC ship to ship from

[00:09:42] you don't get any of that you get literally handwritten documents

[00:09:47] scribbles and things like that.

[00:09:48] And when you're under the gun and you're trying to solve a food

[00:09:51] safety problem people are really getting sick.

[00:09:54] It's a lot of pressure and I hadn't really experienced that

[00:09:57] pressure until that first outbreak and every day that you're

[00:10:01] struggling with paperwork trying to get into spreadsheets trying

[00:10:04] to figure out the source, you know, people are getting sick.

[00:10:08] So it's a lot different pressure much different than being

[00:10:11] a solution provider even different than being one of the

[00:10:14] people that supply food because you're just part of a big

[00:10:18] ecosystem.

[00:10:18] It may not be your product, but when you're the one trying

[00:10:22] to figure it out every day that goes by the industry wants

[00:10:25] to know what have you found out which food item is it

[00:10:28] or where did it come from?

[00:10:30] So I got to feel that real life and how closely connected

[00:10:34] food safety foodborne illness and traceability are to

[00:10:37] each other when things go wrong.

[00:10:40] Yeah, and I got to imagine and please give us a little

[00:10:42] more insight into that.

[00:10:43] Like when that outbreak happened, I mean these aren't

[00:10:46] like Andy.

[00:10:48] What's the update for this week?

[00:10:50] It's Andy.

[00:10:50] What's the update for this hour calls in the morning calls

[00:10:53] at lunch calls in the evening type of thing is that the

[00:10:55] way it goes and shed a little light on that especially

[00:10:58] where I was new to the agency.

[00:11:00] I was working every weekend.

[00:11:02] It was just plowing through data.

[00:11:05] So I was a new kid on the block.

[00:11:06] So I got piled up with a whole bunch of things to go

[00:11:08] through.

[00:11:09] Yeah, it's daily calls with the team.

[00:11:12] Pids update calls with state and local agencies and you

[00:11:16] wouldn't believe how many people are involved in these

[00:11:19] outbreak investigations.

[00:11:20] I mean the calls are massive because on a multi-state

[00:11:24] outbreak you're dealing with each state agency.

[00:11:27] You're dealing with local inspectors.

[00:11:29] You're dealing with the food companies and it could

[00:11:32] be dozens and dozens of locations that you're dealing

[00:11:35] with multiple retailers restaurant operators food

[00:11:38] production companies.

[00:11:40] So you can imagine all of this has to get put together

[00:11:43] in the matter of hours.

[00:11:44] So getting everyone's contact getting in touch with

[00:11:47] their ring set up the call set up the team is incredible

[00:11:50] the amount of work that goes into why these outbreak

[00:11:52] investigations and it's all going to happen very

[00:11:55] quickly and very quietly too because you don't want

[00:11:58] to implicate the wrong food item or the wrong

[00:12:00] producer.

[00:12:01] So you're trying to take great care to get it right.

[00:12:04] Let's dive into that a little bit more.

[00:12:06] So Liz and I have been talking about FISMA 204 is

[00:12:10] very near and dear to Liz.

[00:12:12] I kind of see it from an outsider a little bit.

[00:12:14] I'm not in the day-to-day.

[00:12:16] I would love to get your perspective on the

[00:12:19] regulations and what you're seeing in industry.

[00:12:23] I would love to know like just a couple of big

[00:12:25] rock hot button things that either is going well

[00:12:30] not going well or you kind of see like that's

[00:12:32] a train wreck.

[00:12:33] That's about ready to happen or if we just tweak

[00:12:36] this like it will be so much smoother for everyone.

[00:12:40] You know, I would love to get your insights.

[00:12:42] Yeah, great question to read.

[00:12:43] So I left FDA in August of 22 and developed a

[00:12:47] consulting practice called New Era Partners and

[00:12:51] we joined with iFood DS about a year ago.

[00:12:54] So January February of last year to provide

[00:12:57] advisory services for FISMA 204.

[00:13:00] So in the course of doing that we have presented

[00:13:04] to hundreds and hundreds of companies to advise

[00:13:07] them up through webinars and so forth communications

[00:13:11] about how to get started with traceability.

[00:13:13] So we created an infographic our learn plan do

[00:13:17] review methodology for how people can get

[00:13:19] started and presented to many different trade

[00:13:22] associations or working groups and so forth and

[00:13:25] then done on-site projects.

[00:13:27] So we physically go on-site to a lot of distribution

[00:13:30] centers manufacturers actually out to restaurants

[00:13:34] and retail stores and actually track product as

[00:13:37] it's being done today.

[00:13:38] So we've looked at the current state of

[00:13:40] systems.

[00:13:42] So that's given us a viewpoint in our first

[00:13:46] while team of food traceability advisors.

[00:13:48] We've seen a lot and we've seen the state

[00:13:51] of where systems are today and I would say the

[00:13:53] good news is we've seen a lot of success.

[00:13:57] I've actually seen sortable spreadsheets in the

[00:13:59] wild.

[00:14:00] So I've actually seen it.

[00:14:01] It does exist.

[00:14:02] I was so shocked.

[00:14:03] I'm like, oh my god, this is a sortable

[00:14:05] spreadsheet.

[00:14:06] It lived.

[00:14:07] So I get so excited.

[00:14:09] I'm like, oh my god people are actually doing

[00:14:11] it.

[00:14:11] They're receiving lock codes from their

[00:14:13] suppliers.

[00:14:14] They're connecting it to outbound shipments

[00:14:16] producing sortable spreadsheets.

[00:14:18] So it does exist.

[00:14:19] It can be done.

[00:14:20] However high volume distribution centers depending

[00:14:23] on how their warehouse management systems were

[00:14:25] set up and configured are really challenged

[00:14:28] because suppliers provide and I know this is

[00:14:31] going to shock you.

[00:14:32] Not all of them absolutely provide GS1 120

[00:14:36] barcodes perfectly formatted perfectly readable.

[00:14:39] The very small minority cases where they don't

[00:14:42] but there are definitely those cases where

[00:14:44] people use the older standard the ITF 14

[00:14:48] which just has a GTEN.

[00:14:49] So no lock code or they might put a UPC

[00:14:52] or maybe just their SKU number or an

[00:14:55] internal number.

[00:14:56] So distribution centers have that challenge of

[00:15:00] many different formats of products coming

[00:15:03] through their DCs and unless you have 100%

[00:15:07] the same DCs can't use that information.

[00:15:10] I want to pause on that just for a second

[00:15:12] because we threw out lots of acronyms

[00:15:15] and UPCs and GTENs and all that but it

[00:15:18] really boiled down to many different formats

[00:15:22] of sharing information.

[00:15:23] That's fundamentally what it is many different

[00:15:25] formats of sharing information which I think

[00:15:28] a lot of folks is like yeah, so what's the

[00:15:29] problem with that?

[00:15:30] I like to take you know everyday folks

[00:15:32] and be like well, it's like every delivery

[00:15:35] that comes to your house is in a different

[00:15:38] language Hebrew Arabic Chinese Mandarin Hindu

[00:15:44] and it goes on and on and on you can decipher

[00:15:47] it but it just takes time and depending

[00:15:49] upon what resources you have it could take

[00:15:51] a lot of time.

[00:15:52] Now, let's layer on top.

[00:15:53] It's your four-year-old child.

[00:15:55] They're sick.

[00:15:55] They just broke out in hives.

[00:15:56] They're throwing up.

[00:15:57] They have 104 fever.

[00:15:59] That's really what we're talking about here.

[00:16:00] I mean it's food safety and we can live

[00:16:04] without food for a while without water

[00:16:06] for less while but we all need it and

[00:16:09] it's much more serious than we think we

[00:16:11] really I think as an everyday public in

[00:16:13] the United States we take for granted

[00:16:15] grocery stores just on a very daily basis

[00:16:20] and I just hope that settles in for folks

[00:16:22] because this is like it's not trivial and

[00:16:24] it's complicated.

[00:16:25] It's so complicated and Andy's talking

[00:16:28] about these high-volume distribution centers.

[00:16:30] If you think about all of those shipments

[00:16:32] that they're getting in from their suppliers

[00:16:35] hundreds and hundreds and hundreds then

[00:16:37] they send it hundreds and hundreds

[00:16:38] and hundreds of customers.

[00:16:40] It's crazy, but it's all food and it

[00:16:41] needs to be handled safely and then

[00:16:43] FISMA 204 is that additional record-keeping

[00:16:47] so that when you do have an issue you

[00:16:48] can more quickly get to the guts of that

[00:16:50] information.

[00:16:51] Right Andy?

[00:16:52] I mean that's like the basis of FISMA 204.

[00:16:55] Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:56] The traceability lock code and the source

[00:16:58] where was something made and what was

[00:17:00] the lock code because from the lock code

[00:17:02] you can figure out the ingredients who

[00:17:04] is on the production line that day.

[00:17:06] Where was it produced if it's an

[00:17:08] initial packer you can figure out

[00:17:10] which fields it came from if your first

[00:17:13] land-based receiver what vessels that

[00:17:15] came from where did that come from like

[00:17:17] that's really what it comes down to is

[00:17:18] where did this product come from that

[00:17:20] got me sick connecting those dots to

[00:17:22] the source is really important because

[00:17:24] most food borne illness the

[00:17:26] contamination comes from the process

[00:17:29] where it's made or it's harvested

[00:17:31] where it's packed.

[00:17:32] It doesn't come in transit.

[00:17:33] That's typically not where food

[00:17:36] barnillas comes from.

[00:17:37] It's typically a systematic problem at

[00:17:39] a manufacturing facility at a farm.

[00:17:42] So getting to those physical locations

[00:17:44] as quickly as possible with kind of a

[00:17:45] date range and knowing which product

[00:17:48] so it's this particular commodity not

[00:17:51] that particular commodity is really

[00:17:52] important for those commodity groups

[00:17:54] and for the investigators.

[00:17:56] So yeah, that basic information

[00:17:59] who produced it where they produce it

[00:18:01] when did they produce it and the

[00:18:03] ingredients that went into it or

[00:18:04] the fields that were harvested that

[00:18:06] went into it.

[00:18:07] That's the core of the rule.

[00:18:08] I have a very random question

[00:18:10] because you talked about fields

[00:18:12] processing not so much transit.

[00:18:14] I mean it's either been contaminated

[00:18:17] or the contamination is just about

[00:18:18] to start and germinate or whatever

[00:18:20] it may be but timing is really

[00:18:23] important here.

[00:18:23] Have you ever run into a situation

[00:18:25] where hey we have this contamination

[00:18:28] we think it's either this facility

[00:18:30] or this location, but it was cleaned

[00:18:33] up.

[00:18:33] There's no longer evidence and

[00:18:35] then a month later it happens

[00:18:37] again and you're like man.

[00:18:39] Have you run into that?

[00:18:40] Yeah, and that's pretty common

[00:18:42] because there are periodic clean

[00:18:44] outs.

[00:18:45] So sometimes if you go into a

[00:18:46] facility, you know, it's been

[00:18:48] cleaned up.

[00:18:49] It's hard to swab and detect the

[00:18:50] pathogen.

[00:18:51] It may come back but sometimes

[00:18:53] it's hard.

[00:18:54] You have to catch it at that

[00:18:55] point in time.

[00:18:56] So a good example is at the

[00:18:58] end of a growing season in a

[00:18:59] particular region if product is

[00:19:02] shipped out of that farm or

[00:19:03] field you can't do the trace

[00:19:05] back until three or four or five

[00:19:06] weeks later that fields empty

[00:19:09] the equipment's gone.

[00:19:10] The crews moved on to a different

[00:19:11] region.

[00:19:12] It's tumbleweeds.

[00:19:14] I mean there's nothing to look

[00:19:15] at.

[00:19:16] So the quicker you can get out

[00:19:17] there, the more likely you

[00:19:18] still have active operations

[00:19:20] going on.

[00:19:20] So it's super important.

[00:19:22] That's why trace back

[00:19:23] investigations they try and

[00:19:25] shrink the time.

[00:19:26] So part of the rule and the

[00:19:28] estimates of the rule is an

[00:19:30] average outbreak investigation

[00:19:31] takes 35 days and the goal

[00:19:34] with the rules to get it

[00:19:35] down to six.

[00:19:36] So if you shrink it from 35

[00:19:38] to 6 the odds that that field

[00:19:40] is still in production or that

[00:19:42] packing house is still in

[00:19:43] production or the situation

[00:19:45] that was causing the problem at

[00:19:47] that manufacturing facility is

[00:19:48] still there a week later.

[00:19:50] A month later it may not be

[00:19:51] there.

[00:19:52] Equipment can get moved out.

[00:19:53] It can be broken down cleaned

[00:19:55] up.

[00:19:55] So that situation may have

[00:19:56] disappeared and you've lost

[00:19:58] the window to find the source

[00:19:59] of contamination and then you

[00:20:01] have no idea.

[00:20:02] So there's most outbreak

[00:20:03] investigations.

[00:20:05] They don't actually find the

[00:20:06] source of contamination because

[00:20:08] of that.

[00:20:08] And also if you can get it

[00:20:10] down to six days then there may

[00:20:12] be the possibility of getting

[00:20:14] some of this fresh food off of

[00:20:15] the shelves at grocery stores

[00:20:16] right because 35 days it's

[00:20:18] gone.

[00:20:19] Right.

[00:20:20] Fresh items shelf life of a

[00:20:22] couple weeks it's gone.

[00:20:24] Yeah so this is both finding

[00:20:25] out where the issue started

[00:20:27] and getting potentially

[00:20:28] contaminated products off the

[00:20:30] shelf.

[00:20:30] I mean that's huge.

[00:20:31] Andy you mentioned BT which

[00:20:33] I'm assuming is the

[00:20:34] bioterrorism act.

[00:20:36] What is the difference between

[00:20:38] BT and FISMA?

[00:20:39] Yeah so the BT act was created

[00:20:41] in 2002 and started enforcement

[00:20:44] in 2004.

[00:20:45] They call it the one up one

[00:20:46] back rule.

[00:20:47] So it is primarily what

[00:20:49] food you received who did you

[00:20:51] receive it from and then who

[00:20:53] did you send it to.

[00:20:54] And there's kind of a

[00:20:55] recommendation that if you're

[00:20:56] a manufacturer that you

[00:20:58] provide the lot code but in

[00:21:00] terms of providing that

[00:21:02] information to the subsequent

[00:21:03] recipient it's not part of the

[00:21:05] rule.

[00:21:06] So the BT act doesn't have

[00:21:07] data sharing.

[00:21:08] So interoperability is not

[00:21:10] part of that rule.

[00:21:12] Whereas FISMA 204 part of

[00:21:15] the rule is shipping KDE's

[00:21:17] have to be supplied to the

[00:21:19] subsequent recipient.

[00:21:20] KDE's key data elements.

[00:21:24] Yep so the key data elements

[00:21:26] have to be provided to the

[00:21:27] subsequent recipient.

[00:21:28] So that creates and drives

[00:21:30] a need for interoperability.

[00:21:32] So that's where you know

[00:21:33] back to the high volume

[00:21:34] distribution center they're

[00:21:35] reliant on their suppliers

[00:21:37] to send those key data

[00:21:38] elements forward about the

[00:21:40] traceability lot code and

[00:21:41] the source provide that

[00:21:42] information to those

[00:21:43] distribution centers in a

[00:21:45] way that they can receive

[00:21:46] it quickly and efficiently.

[00:21:47] So that's where the BT

[00:21:49] act it didn't require data

[00:21:50] sharing so lot codes

[00:21:52] could literally change at

[00:21:53] every point of the supply

[00:21:54] chain.

[00:21:55] If we go back to the BT

[00:21:56] act that's kind of like

[00:21:57] an outcome of the 9-11

[00:22:00] situation and where we were

[00:22:01] going and again before

[00:22:03] iPhones and those types of

[00:22:05] things and now the data

[00:22:06] sharing is you know a lot

[00:22:07] better.

[00:22:08] We really take for granted.

[00:22:09] I mean I remember 2002

[00:22:11] very visibly but that's

[00:22:13] 22 years ago.

[00:22:15] It's a generation.

[00:22:16] A lot has changed.

[00:22:17] It's very interesting.

[00:22:18] So it's nice to see that

[00:22:19] the FISMA 204 really

[00:22:22] kind of rolls on top

[00:22:23] of that and just kind

[00:22:24] of takes it to that

[00:22:25] next level.

[00:22:26] So with that being said

[00:22:28] what is your perspective

[00:22:30] of the part that GS1

[00:22:32] standards play with

[00:22:34] adopting and achieving

[00:22:36] compliance or helping

[00:22:38] in any way shape or form

[00:22:39] with FISMA 204?

[00:22:41] Think about those past

[00:22:42] 20 years.

[00:22:43] So when the BT act was

[00:22:44] proposed originally they

[00:22:46] had lot code but some

[00:22:47] of the comments and the

[00:22:48] reason why lot code was

[00:22:49] taken out is it

[00:22:51] wasn't feasible like

[00:22:52] industry didn't have the

[00:22:53] technology or the skills

[00:22:55] to do lot code traceability

[00:22:57] up and down the supply

[00:22:58] chain.

[00:22:59] Over the past 20 years

[00:23:00] the work that's been done

[00:23:01] with GS1 and industry

[00:23:04] groups like the previous

[00:23:05] traceability initiative.

[00:23:06] Some of the work that was

[00:23:07] done beginning in 2008

[00:23:09] with PTI even before

[00:23:11] FISMA was signed into

[00:23:13] law working on

[00:23:15] identifying cases,

[00:23:17] digitizing records,

[00:23:18] capturing the information,

[00:23:20] sharing it with tools

[00:23:22] like EPCIS.

[00:23:23] Over the past 20 years

[00:23:25] all those technologies

[00:23:26] have been developed

[00:23:28] and refined and improved

[00:23:30] so that different

[00:23:31] organizations can now

[00:23:33] communicate with each

[00:23:34] other.

[00:23:35] Lot code information,

[00:23:36] traceability information

[00:23:37] and EPCIS has evolved

[00:23:39] to where it's being

[00:23:40] broadly adopted by

[00:23:42] like the seafood industry

[00:23:43] for interoperability.

[00:23:45] It's now part of the

[00:23:46] standards for FISMA

[00:23:47] 204.

[00:23:48] So the FISMA 204

[00:23:50] working group from GS1

[00:23:52] just released guidance

[00:23:54] incorporating EPCIS

[00:23:56] and EDI together

[00:23:58] as parallel options

[00:24:00] for how you might share

[00:24:01] those KDE's with each

[00:24:03] other.

[00:24:04] So that evolution of

[00:24:05] technology,

[00:24:06] EDI has been around a

[00:24:07] long time,

[00:24:08] like longer than you

[00:24:09] read I think.

[00:24:10] Yeah,

[00:24:11] only by like two years.

[00:24:16] So EPCIS is the

[00:24:17] new kid on the block

[00:24:19] and provides a lot more

[00:24:21] information,

[00:24:22] a lot more efficient

[00:24:23] way of sharing data

[00:24:24] and you can describe

[00:24:24] all of the critical

[00:24:25] tracking events

[00:24:26] and key data elements.

[00:24:28] So that technology

[00:24:29] is going to enable

[00:24:30] like the next generation

[00:24:32] of interoperability

[00:24:33] and traceability.

[00:24:35] It's going to take time.

[00:24:36] I mean no doubt,

[00:24:36] like it's a big industry

[00:24:38] and there's a lot of work

[00:24:39] that still needs to go on

[00:24:40] but at least if you

[00:24:41] have that common framework

[00:24:42] that you can work towards

[00:24:44] it creates like FISMA 204

[00:24:46] when we talk about it

[00:24:47] in 10 years

[00:24:48] it's going to be a non-issue

[00:24:49] because right now people

[00:24:50] don't complain about

[00:24:51] how much it costs

[00:24:52] to do the bioterrorism

[00:24:53] act of 2002.

[00:24:55] They did.

[00:24:55] When they started

[00:24:56] it didn't bring anything else,

[00:24:57] right?

[00:24:58] Just like

[00:24:58] you got to wear a seatbelt,

[00:24:59] no drinking and driving.

[00:25:01] I love watching those old

[00:25:02] commercials like

[00:25:03] no smoking indoors.

[00:25:04] When it first starts

[00:25:06] the world is ending.

[00:25:07] And technology gets better

[00:25:08] and cheaper over time.

[00:25:10] So just like when I started

[00:25:12] doing traceability

[00:25:13] with the Windows CE devices

[00:25:15] instead of iPhone

[00:25:16] and Android

[00:25:17] it was really expensive

[00:25:18] to do data capture.

[00:25:19] Now it's not

[00:25:20] and so 10 years from now

[00:25:22] the technology will be

[00:25:23] so much better

[00:25:24] that really, you know,

[00:25:26] the things that we're worried

[00:25:27] about today will be handled

[00:25:28] and so we'll be on

[00:25:30] to the next set of challenges.

[00:25:31] I'm sure.

[00:25:32] And so, okay,

[00:25:34] organizations kind of need to do

[00:25:36] traceability or FISMA 204

[00:25:38] compliance because of regulation.

[00:25:40] But it sounds like

[00:25:41] there's a lot of things

[00:25:42] that they're going to be doing

[00:25:43] investing in technology

[00:25:45] potentially infrastructure

[00:25:47] but getting their data together.

[00:25:48] I'm assuming

[00:25:49] and tell me if I'm right here

[00:25:51] that there's other benefits

[00:25:52] beyond compliance

[00:25:54] and not just in the next couple of years

[00:25:56] but as technology moves forward

[00:25:58] have you thought about

[00:26:00] and I'm sure you have

[00:26:01] because beyond compliance

[00:26:03] can be three years from now

[00:26:04] if you're ahead of the game.

[00:26:05] What other benefits

[00:26:06] could there be beyond

[00:26:07] just the traceability stuff?

[00:26:09] There's a couple different

[00:26:10] benefits I've seen

[00:26:11] especially after going through

[00:26:12] the COVID-19 experience

[00:26:14] at FDA watching supply chains meltdown

[00:26:17] being able to dynamically

[00:26:19] respond to challenges

[00:26:20] in the food supply chain

[00:26:22] is incredibly important.

[00:26:24] So resilience being able

[00:26:25] rewire supply chains dynamically

[00:26:27] which means you've got to have

[00:26:29] visibility in real time.

[00:26:31] Across your entire supply chain

[00:26:33] and across different supply chains

[00:26:35] that don't necessarily interact

[00:26:36] with each other

[00:26:37] because what we saw was

[00:26:39] all of a sudden

[00:26:40] food service melted down

[00:26:41] like no one was going to restaurants.

[00:26:43] So there was all these

[00:26:44] food items that were produced

[00:26:47] to restaurants back

[00:26:48] that had to get rewired

[00:26:49] through the retail sector.

[00:26:50] Not single package consumer use.

[00:26:53] Exactly.

[00:26:54] So that transition was tough

[00:26:56] technology helped aid it

[00:26:58] but can imagine if you

[00:26:59] actually had lot level traceability

[00:27:01] and vision you can see your inventory

[00:27:04] you can see what products are where

[00:27:06] and where they need to move

[00:27:07] and you could rewire

[00:27:09] different supply chains

[00:27:10] because you have interoperability.

[00:27:12] So if everyone's using EPCIS

[00:27:13] and can share their inventory

[00:27:15] back and forth

[00:27:16] you can change who you're doing business with

[00:27:18] almost instantly

[00:27:20] just by a couple clicks.

[00:27:22] So now that rewiring

[00:27:24] wouldn't have taken

[00:27:25] six to eight weeks

[00:27:26] it could have been done much faster

[00:27:28] because people end up

[00:27:29] plowing good food under

[00:27:30] because they had no outlet to sell it.

[00:27:32] Right.

[00:27:32] Yeah, we all saw the whole

[00:27:34] hey let's pour the milk down the drain

[00:27:35] instead of because it went to schools

[00:27:37] and those are single use items

[00:27:39] that we could have put into grocery stores

[00:27:41] but because of the way it was identified

[00:27:43] we couldn't seamlessly take it in.

[00:27:45] Absolutely.

[00:27:46] Yeah.

[00:27:47] Selling a whole bunch of those

[00:27:47] little tiny little milk containers

[00:27:49] to a consumer that wants

[00:27:51] like a two gallon container.

[00:27:53] Yeah, that's not as efficient.

[00:27:54] So yeah.

[00:27:55] Liz and I have talked about this before

[00:27:57] and you know in my home dinner conversations

[00:28:00] the kids sometimes will ask questions

[00:28:02] most of the time they don't

[00:28:02] because they're teenagers

[00:28:04] but food service and grocery

[00:28:06] they're very very similar

[00:28:07] and very very different

[00:28:09] all in the same breath.

[00:28:10] I said to my kids

[00:28:11] I'm like the closest you get

[00:28:13] to this experience is going to Costco

[00:28:15] and they're like what are you talking about?

[00:28:16] I'm like well sometimes we go to Costco

[00:28:17] and there's that massive jar of ketchup

[00:28:20] and for a family of five

[00:28:22] that works well

[00:28:23] but for a family of two

[00:28:24] that's like a lifetime supply

[00:28:25] and I said that's food service

[00:28:27] versus grocery

[00:28:29] and they're like oh

[00:28:30] I'm like yeah, but you know anyway

[00:28:32] I would be interested in your opinion

[00:28:34] changing gears just slightly

[00:28:36] because we've also been talking about

[00:28:38] the use of 2D barcodes, right?

[00:28:40] The most common one out there today is QR code

[00:28:42] and everyone's familiar with them.

[00:28:44] So we're seeing the use of 2D barcodes

[00:28:46] and we've been pushing Sunrise 2027

[00:28:50] which is the start of use of 2D at retail.

[00:28:53] We're also talking about digital receipts

[00:28:56] and having this platform to have the information in

[00:28:59] and there's pros and cons to all these types of things

[00:29:02] but I'm interested in your opinion

[00:29:04] how this relates to food safety.

[00:29:05] Does it come into play or does it not?

[00:29:07] Absolutely and I think having Sunrise 2027

[00:29:10] Pismet 204, it really is moving us

[00:29:13] in the direction of convergence

[00:29:14] between point of sale information

[00:29:16] and supply chain information.

[00:29:18] You can see those things connecting

[00:29:20] and the user interface for that

[00:29:22] would be the digital receipt.

[00:29:23] So when a consumer right now gets a paper receipt,

[00:29:26] they can't do much with it.

[00:29:28] But if you get a digital receipt

[00:29:29] that includes hyperlinks to those products

[00:29:32] that allows you to potentially reorder them.

[00:29:35] I mean basically people have the same 15-20 items

[00:29:38] in their shopping cart every week.

[00:29:40] Having that information in a digital fashion

[00:29:43] where you can store it in like a reorder app

[00:29:46] so you can reorder that again.

[00:29:48] That's a simple example.

[00:29:49] But if you had the lock code

[00:29:51] now you can provide lock code level response.

[00:29:54] So you could give a thumbs up thumbs down

[00:29:56] based on the quality of that product.

[00:29:58] So now deep down in the supply chain

[00:30:00] if you connect the supply chain data to the POS data

[00:30:03] people deep in the supply chain

[00:30:04] can get consumer feedback

[00:30:06] which is really hard to do right now

[00:30:08] and from a public health perspective

[00:30:10] if consumers have that lock code level information

[00:30:14] push into their phone into an app that they have

[00:30:17] when they're interviewed by CDC

[00:30:19] when they have a foodborne illness

[00:30:21] they could actually provide the information

[00:30:23] on their own application

[00:30:25] their own consumer app

[00:30:26] and say well these are the products I bought

[00:30:28] over the past two or three weeks

[00:30:30] and maybe even here the lock codes for some of them.

[00:30:33] So now if they had lock code at their fingertips

[00:30:36] that's kind of game-changing

[00:30:37] for outbreak investigations

[00:30:39] because now you're not going through the records

[00:30:41] of the distributor and the broker

[00:30:43] and then this person that person

[00:30:45] the consumer would know

[00:30:46] this is either the date code

[00:30:47] or the lock code of the product that I bought

[00:30:50] and they would have it automatically being populated

[00:30:53] so they don't have to do a secondary operation

[00:30:55] like scanning QR codes.

[00:30:57] The QR code is scanned at POS

[00:30:59] it gets added to the digital receipt

[00:31:01] and what they have is digital receipt app.

[00:31:03] So they have all that information

[00:31:05] either in their credit card

[00:31:07] or in a separate app a health app.

[00:31:09] So a lot of people collect that information

[00:31:11] for health reasons.

[00:31:13] They would have allergens

[00:31:14] they'd have nutrition information

[00:31:16] they'd have supply again reordering the foods

[00:31:19] that they like.

[00:31:20] They could gravitate

[00:31:21] especially in the commodity food world

[00:31:23] they could identify Brewer Packer shippers

[00:31:26] that they like which would be great.

[00:31:27] So the PLUs which are totally undifferentiated

[00:31:30] right now you could actually segment

[00:31:32] and say this particular type of produce

[00:31:36] is being better received by consumers than this type

[00:31:39] but right now it's all shielded because it's PLUs.

[00:31:41] And for those that don't know PLU?

[00:31:44] Product Lookup.

[00:31:45] So yeah, it is the four or five digit code

[00:31:48] that you spent hours at the self checkout trying to find.

[00:31:52] They've gotten so much better at it

[00:31:53] so much better at that.

[00:31:55] It was terrifying to have

[00:31:57] wait you want me to get produce

[00:31:58] but it's self checkout.

[00:31:59] It's self check I'm not getting produce

[00:32:00] I'm not getting produce.

[00:32:03] And a lot of shrink comes from those PLU codes

[00:32:05] because you can change the PLU number

[00:32:08] to the non-organic from the organic

[00:32:10] and you get a discount.

[00:32:11] So people have figured out that game too.

[00:32:14] So yeah, definitely moving more towards a 2D barcode

[00:32:18] on those products that could really be consumed by the POS

[00:32:22] would be advantageous for a lot of different.

[00:32:24] What you just explained feels like

[00:32:26] Google Lookup capabilities,

[00:32:27] Google search capabilities for everything we're consuming.

[00:32:31] Absolutely.

[00:32:32] Reid and I have two questions

[00:32:34] that we ask all of our guests at the end

[00:32:36] of our recording.

[00:32:37] I get to ask you the first one.

[00:32:39] Can't wait to hear what you're going to say.

[00:32:41] So personal life, work life.

[00:32:43] What is the favorite technology that you're using right now?

[00:32:48] My favorite technology right now is

[00:32:51] and this is like a pet peeve of mine

[00:32:53] from working with many different companies

[00:32:55] is the receipts from traveling are the worst.

[00:32:59] Like keeping track of all those little paper slips

[00:33:02] and speaking of digital receipts

[00:33:04] like you get a lot of paper

[00:33:06] and what I love about my iPhone right now

[00:33:09] is when you bring up the notes app

[00:33:12] and scan those receipts and put it in your notes app

[00:33:15] and then it will digitize all the text.

[00:33:17] So it makes it searchable.

[00:33:18] Coolest thing ever.

[00:33:19] So when I'm trying to find the receipt from

[00:33:22] Troublethorpe, Florida or whatever

[00:33:24] I can just type in Miami

[00:33:25] and on my phone it will find all those pictures

[00:33:29] of receipts from Miami

[00:33:30] because it digitizes all the text.

[00:33:33] It just kind of did it.

[00:33:34] It didn't make a big deal out of it

[00:33:36] which I love about iPhones.

[00:33:38] It's like a new feature will pop up.

[00:33:39] They won't even tell you about it.

[00:33:41] It's incredible.

[00:33:42] So that's one of my favorite things now

[00:33:44] is like digitizing the text in my notes app.

[00:33:47] I love that.

[00:33:48] Yeah, I just use the notes app to remind myself

[00:33:50] where I parked the car when I go to the airport

[00:33:52] because I'll hit three of them in a week.

[00:33:55] That's a nice little tip.

[00:33:56] I appreciate the simplicity

[00:33:57] and I am literally I have a stack of receipts

[00:33:59] in front of me right now that have to get done

[00:34:01] there like two weeks behind.

[00:34:03] The question I have for you is

[00:34:04] what is something throughout your life

[00:34:06] that just hit you like it made you pause

[00:34:09] and it just blew your mind

[00:34:11] and you started looking at the world differently

[00:34:13] from that moment on.

[00:34:14] I think the thing that opened up my mind

[00:34:17] the most is honestly doing

[00:34:19] the seafood traceability project

[00:34:21] because working primarily in the US

[00:34:24] it gave me visibility into all the amazing ideas

[00:34:28] and technology that was being developed

[00:34:30] around the world.

[00:34:31] So I think we have a tendency to focus

[00:34:34] on like the innovation engines here in the US

[00:34:36] but getting out on the road

[00:34:38] and seeing the amazing things that were going on

[00:34:41] in Bangkok and Bali and Portugal

[00:34:44] and places like that.

[00:34:45] So I realized like we're in this little bubble

[00:34:48] information bubble.

[00:34:49] We just see what we see here in the US.

[00:34:52] So if you're working on a problem

[00:34:54] or you're thinking about how do I do something

[00:34:56] differently, it's really good to expand that lens

[00:35:00] and some of the opportunities I've had

[00:35:03] with GS1 is going to like the global meetings.

[00:35:06] So there you're exposed to what is it?

[00:35:08] 109, 110 member organizations.

[00:35:12] Very important team this year.

[00:35:13] It's incredible.

[00:35:14] Like I always come away from that event

[00:35:16] just blown away at all the cool things

[00:35:18] that are going on around the world

[00:35:20] and I had a chance to visit a bunch

[00:35:21] of the member organizations

[00:35:23] while I was doing seafood traceability

[00:35:25] because we made a point.

[00:35:26] We went to the country.

[00:35:27] We tried to go visit DL.

[00:35:29] So like if you're traveling

[00:35:31] you just want to see what's going on in that country.

[00:35:33] The GS1 member organizations

[00:35:35] are like the honeybees of traceability technology.

[00:35:39] So they know what's going on.

[00:35:41] So you go reach out to that office

[00:35:43] and they're great.

[00:35:44] They're super friendly.

[00:35:45] You can show up and they'll tell you

[00:35:46] what's going on in that country

[00:35:48] and I think it's a really underutilized resource

[00:35:50] when people are doing global projects

[00:35:52] especially traceability because the MOs

[00:35:56] they're the ones that are exposed

[00:35:57] to all the questions and the hard things.

[00:35:59] So definitely encourage people

[00:36:01] like do a road trip.

[00:36:03] See your local MO

[00:36:04] when you're in a different country.

[00:36:05] It's definitely worth it.

[00:36:06] Yeah, and what Andy is referring to with MOs

[00:36:09] are member organizations.

[00:36:10] GS1 is actually a federated organization.

[00:36:12] So there's GS1 US which Liz and I work for

[00:36:15] and then there's GS1 Canada

[00:36:16] and there's GS1 Mexico and GS1 Germany

[00:36:18] and GS1 Japan and so on down the line

[00:36:21] there's about 114

[00:36:22] and that's because every country

[00:36:24] has its own different rules and regulations.

[00:36:27] So that's really cool to see how you are leveraging

[00:36:29] the system the global system

[00:36:32] and connecting it and using it as jump-off points

[00:36:36] and it's really cool.

[00:36:38] Well Andy, one thank you for the time today.

[00:36:41] Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation

[00:36:42] and two I think I can say this on behalf of Liz too

[00:36:46] but thank you for the work that you do in the industry.

[00:36:49] I can see the challenges.

[00:36:50] We do see the challenges and nothing's perfect

[00:36:53] but it's got to be really rewarding

[00:36:55] when things come together

[00:36:56] and driving from 35 days to six days

[00:37:00] and then the next iteration of that

[00:37:02] getting it to like a day getting it to within hours.

[00:37:06] So thank you for that.

[00:37:07] Appreciate it.

[00:37:08] Absolutely and I'd be remiss if I didn't set

[00:37:11] the Frank Yannis goal of 2.2 seconds.

[00:37:17] Well, thank you for the opportunity

[00:37:19] to be part of the podcast reading Liz

[00:37:21] and I look forward to working with you

[00:37:23] on getting it down to 2.2 seconds.

[00:37:25] Awesome.

[00:37:26] Thank you.

[00:37:27] Thank you.

[00:37:29] Thank you for joining us on this episode

[00:37:32] of the Next Level Supply Chain with GS1 US.

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